November 30, 2003

Respected fight promoter Cedric Kushner says boxing needs to make dramatic and drastic changes and he expects them to happen soon. Credited with originally proposing a 'promoters' summit' to address serious problems facing the sport, Kushner has now amended his initial concept. In a candid, exclusive interview, Kushner goes into great detail on what he believes needs to be done for the fight game to survive as a mainstream sport.

Lou DiBella recently commented on the urgency to do something to fix the problems currently plaguing the boxing business. He credited you with the idea for a promoter’s summit.

I've always thought that was something necessary, but I've changed my slant slightly. In a fundamental sense I agree with that, however the slant and the new philosophy is not a promoter’s summit, but a summit for all who are concerned with the well-being of boxing. I would like boxers to attend, I would like managers to attend, television executives, everyone who has an involvement in the sport to attend. So what we need to do is educate those of us who are not familiar with certain aspects of the business. There are obviously aspects of the business that I am not aware of, not totally up to snuff with certain aspects of maybe television, as a television executive may not be aware of the problems or difficulties that I have. Similarly managers may not know all the facts, and most certainly the fighters have to be educated.

So what would be on the agenda of such an event?

Well, I think we do have to discuss the overall state of the industry. I concur with Lou, we are in a very, very difficult time. In my conversations with two of the premier promoters of our sport Bob Arum and Don King and since I've been involved since 1985, '84-'85, this is the most probably the most difficult period in twenty years.

I think we started the downturn when the television networks, as we know them, ABC, CBS and NBC, went off the air. If you think of fighters like Bobby Czyz, ‘Boom Boom’ Mancini, Alex Ramos, James Kinchen, some of the names of the past, some of the them were good fighters, not great fighters, but they were extremely well known because of the popularity they got by being regulars on the television networks. If you think of the exposure that they received and the recognition that they received, imagine if one could have parlayed that with pay-per-view as we know it today, with a substantially larger universe. We would have done incredible things with the popularity of some of those guys.

We don't have the benefit of network television as we used to know it. We only have one vehicle which gives you the opportunity for people on a non-premium network, which, of course, I'm referring to ESPN. Most people have ESPN, because if you buy a basic cable package, you get ESPN, but I'm sure there are some people that don't have that, or maybe some bars or restaurants. My point being, when NBC is on the air and you were in a tavern shooting pool or having a few beers, you could watch the fights on a Saturday or a Sunday and everyone at any home in the country could watch the fights. That was sensational exposure which we are desperately lacking now and the reality is how do you develop the stars if you cannot provide exposure for people to see?

I've heard that boxing gets great ratings, but the issue is that nobody wants to advertise...

I'm not an angel, nor do I profess to be one. In my short tenure in the business, I've seen some terrible things. Things that I most certainly hope know one else has to experience. I'd like to see the sport cleaned up. I would like to see the image enhanced. I never thought I would say this, but over the last year I've given a lot of thought to the union, J.A.B., to the benefits that could accrue to the fighters. We live in an environment where there are a very minimal amount are very successful fighters and the vast majority are not that successful. Some of them just making a living or barely making a living. There are a lot of fighters that need the support that a union could afford them.

But that's the benefit of the union to the fighter. The benefit, as I see it, to the promoter would be we would see people saying 'You know, they are trying to take care of their own. They are making sure that fighters are correctly compensated.’ Maybe even in some cases there could be some guidance to investments. There could be some guidance to health insurance. There could be some guidance as far as retirement benefits are concerned, pension plans, maybe jobs after boxing, which is something, as we all know, that doesn't go on forever.

I think some of the benefits that can accrue to the promoters, such as myself, is there can be a perception that it's OK to be involved as a sponsor in the sport of boxing. I’d like to talk about the automotive industry, that is a multi-billion dollar industry, and we know how much they must spend worldwide on marketing, on advertising, on promoting their wares, their automobiles. It's incredible to think that the automotive industry worldwide most probably spends 3 or 4 billions per annum. 3 or 4 billions per annum. And one of the most popular international sports in the entire world receives totally, totally insignificant amount of dollars from this industry that is in many, many selling their wares to the same audience, as Anheuser-Busch , Coors, Corona, the beer companies.

In other words there are guys that watch fights that buy trucks. Why are we not receiving some of that revenue? It's impossible for me to understand why the automotive industry, just as one of those industries, is not a major sponsor in the sport of boxing. And I believe if we can change the image, we can then look to a lot of these industries. We're not asking them to find new dollars, we're asking them to support us with the same dollars that they are currently spending on other events that don't include boxing.

That makes sense. What do you think is keeping them away right now?

I suppose I have to admit the obvious. Some of it obviously is the image of our sport. I'm not totally sure. I don't profess to have all the answers.

I give an example of something that was explained to me by a high-powered advertising executive. He told me that it was an easier sell to a potential advertiser or a potential sponsor, [if you] tell that client, ‘On Wednesday, there's going to be a pro-am practice round before a great golf tournament. You be involved in the sponsorship of that golf tournament and [you can] bring your twelve top executives and bring your twelve top clients and they can play. We'll pair them up with some of the golf professionals while they are practicing before the actual tournament starts on Thursday.'

Now, you can't do the same thing in boxing. Unfortunately, most of the fighters haven't been educated. They haven't been trained. Nor can you make a comparison to the day before a [golf] tournament. I understand to a certain degree from the fighter’s side. I remember when George Forman was fighting. There was a possibility for him to fight at Foxwoods, the major casino in Connecticut. And one of the requirements that Foxwoods had was that there needed to be a pre-fight party for high rollers on the night before the event. One thing lead to another and we couldn't get the contestants to show up, and if they did show up it wasn't sort of the same kind of environment. It wasn't the same level of comfort.

As I understand it, in other sports there are certain mandatory requirements. I understand there’s a post fight press conference after every basketball game. It's not like if you want to show up, show up. You HAVE to show up. It's part of your contract. We need, the sport, need to educate ourselves. We need to educate the fighters, the managers, that there are certain requirements. You can't earn millions of dollars and not do these kinds of things. It's a business. It's a sport in one aspect, but more importantly it's a business, and it has to be treated like every other business.

People have to understand that there are certain things you have to do, and quite frankly, you may not want to. But you have an obligation and you have to fulfill that obligation, and in the overall, it will help you to earn more money. And if that's what you’re doing for a living, it makes sense for you to do those kinds of things. Sign autographs. Go to a hospital. Play with some young kids. Do something for the neighborhood. Attend some of the basketball that might be played in the neighborhood by the various youth leagues and things like that. Do something for the community. Show some semblance of responsibility as someone in the community that's trying to make a difference.

Lou said boxers are entertainers and they have to entertain as well as fight.

There's no doubt about that. I obviously acknowledge and understand that when you've been in a training camp, in seclusion from your family in a very difficult environment, up to 6-8-10 weeks, you're not exactly feeling like you'd feel having spent that time at home, so I understand. Unfortunately you can't explain that to a sponsor when you have a party for the sponsor and these clients, and the main event doesn't show up. That's inexcusable, and quite frankly there has to be some structure which requires a fighter to show up.

This was an issue that hurt the promotion when Vernon Forrest recently had his second fight with Mayorga.

Right. And who is Vernon Forrest not to show up? Who is any fighter for that matter? I don't consider any fighter above the sport itself. Without getting too complicated, the sport is what made the fighter what he is if he's a prominent fighter, not the fighter making the sport. The sport has been around a lot longer than the fighters that are fighting today.

One of the things that get media play is if there's some kind of pre-fight brawl. It seems like that’s what the media clamors for.

Well, there's no doubt about it, like with the Lennox Lewis-Tyson incident that was obviously seen all over the world,

And the fight ended up being one of the highest grossing fights ever, too.

That's true. When Rahman fought Lewis there was also some kind of press conference altercation. I don't think we should be relying on events like that to promote the fight. I'm not suggesting that they don't put eyeballs on the television networks obviously the scandal is something that seems to find its way to the opening line of the newscast or on the front page of the newspaper. It makes people pay a attention to something like that, I don’t know why, but I'm the first one to look at page 6 of the New York Post every morning to see who's doing what. I'm also a victim of that same peculiarity.

What do you have coming up as far as fights?

I'm excited to say that Jamil McCline is fighting James Toney which is a very, very interesting fight. Jamil is about 55 lbs. heavier than Toney and much bigger, much stronger and about ten inches taller. It's a very interesting fight, it's going to be televised on Showtime. I'm working with Dan Goossen, who's been a long time friend. Then the following month, in March, also on Showtime, we have the rematch of Diego Corrales and Joel Casamayor, most probably that will be nominated the fight of the year in 2003, so we've managed to put a deal together and Showtime's going to televise the rematch of that fight, which will also be for the WBO 130 lb. title. By that time the title will be vacant. That's been the title that Freitas has held for a couple of years, the Brazilian.

What's up with David Tua these days?

He's scheduled to fight. Don King won the first bid last week against Lamon Brewster and they're fighting for the WBO title, which is the title Corry Sanders vacated. I've been involved with David for about 18 months, I'm very excited about him and I believe he'll win the fight and then put himself in the picture to get some important fights and some big paydays.

Tua has put his career on hold while he sorts through these legal difficulties with his managers. Do you have an idea when it's going to play itself out and when he's ready to box again?

Well, I'm hoping that there won't be any reason for him not to take the fight, which is currently scheduled for February 14th. You talk about legal difficulties, it's also maybe something I 'd like to see change and this also fits into the union. There should be a binding arbitration agreement with the fighters, and the union and promoters and managers. David turned down a fight with Hasim Rahman due to these legal complications that he was experiencing. It's unfortunate. If there was a more accelerated process, and I think that most certainly could be arbitration, it would be substantially less expensive and a situation like David's, one way or another would have been resolved a lot quicker with a lot less expense. So, I'm very much in favor of arbitration.

Do you think there's a problem with judging?

I don't think that judging is any worse today, than when I got into the business. I know there are some people who think it's worse today than it was 10 years ago, 15 years ago. I think there were bad decisions 10 years ago or 15 years ago or whatever the case maybe.

I'm inclined to think that certain aspects of the selection process should be changed, and I did notice Lou making some comments about the suggestion that there shouldn't be a WBA judge, the judge should be selected by the commission, maybe a little more closely with the sanctioning body.

I smile from ear to ear every time I think about a dinner I had in London at Panos Eliadas’ home. Panos was then the manager of Lennox Lewis and it was the night before Oliver McCall knocked out Lennox Lewis. I remember my dear friend, the late Dan Duva, telling me that Panos was having dinner and had invited us to attend the dinner at his home. I remember walking in and on my right hand side, the referee and judges for the fight for the following day were dining on lobsters that would make The Palm lobsters look small.

And my first comment to Dan was ‘Isn't this crazy. Do you think on the eve of the World Series, if the Yankees were playing against another team, that Steinbrenner would host a party and all the umpires would attend? It something that simply wouldn't happen.’ Now the anecdote to that story is that the Lennox Lewis’ people feel that the referee that officiated in that fight didn't let the fight go long enough, if you test your memory. It wasn't quite that long ago, but as you recall, it was a controversial ending and the same referee was at Panos’ house. Now you can draw whatever conclusion you like from where I'm going with this, but quite naturally, something like that shouldn't happen. You can't socialize with the officials the night before the night. And for the record, I've done the same thing myself. So I'm not singling out Panos or any of the people that were involved with that particular promotion. But it's absolutely ludicrous. Something like that simply shouldn't happen.

What do you think the sanctioning bodies idea of super champions in addition to regular champions?

I was very privileged to meet on three or four occasions to meet with President Nelson Mandela. And on one occasion, the then president of the IBF, Bobby Lee came along to the meeting with President Mandela and I'll never forget.

We were in Cape Town, South Africa, in a very large parlor that was adjacent to one of the Houses of Parliament and we waited for President Mandela to show up. There were about 8-10 of us. He came into the room, we all stood up, we exchanged pleasantries and immediately after that he looked around and he said ‘Where's Bobby?,’ referring to Bobby Lee.

Before I go any further, I have to say there are very often you hear stories about a dignitary or a celebrity who may have a peripheral interest in a particular sport and invariably that's exaggerated what his real interest is. For example, Prince Charles might christen a yacht, the next thing you know someone will say, 'oh, he's at the yacht club every Sunday morning tinkering about' and that's the furthest thing from the truth. He has no real interest in sailing but he did christen one of the yachts. I say this to make a point. President Mandela really does know the sport and is a good, good student of the sport, having been a boxer himself as an amateur and there's a network in South Africa called MNET which televises most of the important fights from all around the world. So, President Mandela has the opportunity to see the fights.

Going back to this meeting with Mandela, after we exchanged pleasantries, he looked around and said 'Where's Bobby?' and he launched into a mini-tirade against Bobby and said to him 'Why don't you get together with Jose and Gilberto? Why don't you change some of the things, you have…' and he mentioned Bernard Hopkins as the champion. He said 'Hopkins is your champion,' he said. At the time. Holmes was I believe the WBC champion and William Joppy was the WBA champion and he referred to those fighters and he said 'You can't have three champions. It doesn't make sense.' He wasn't even talking at the time about the WBO, which is another important sanctioning body today, which would make four world champions.

Now in defense of that overall situation, Bobby Lee said 'Mr. President, maybe you think that's wrong, but how about the fact that through our organization some of your citizens have been given opportunities that they might never have received?' He was referring to Welcome Ncita and Vuyani Bungo, who were South African world champions, so obviously you can make a very cogent argument for that.

But when President Mandala said what he said, and I'll tell it to you in a moment, at that point in time, I never believed that there was any reason or any way that one could actually sell four world champions, four number one contenders in the same weight division. So in any event, he looked around and he said to Bobby. 'That's a valid argument, but think of the Olympic champions. There's only one 100 meter Olympic champion. Look at the prestige, look at the status, look at the stature that that champion has. For four years, until the next Olympics, he's perceived to be the best.' And when he said that, I just realized that that's the way it should be.

It may be detrimental short term, commercially, but long term for those of us that are interested in the future of boxing, there can only be one champion.

I remember when I got into the game, I became a manager of a fighter, while I was a concert promoter and I remember my fighter was a journeyman fighter. His name was Teddy Mann. ‘Irish’ Teddy Mann. He was a middleweight and I remember he fought the number one contender and beat him, somewhat of an upset, and he was rated number four in the world. And at that time, the value of being rated number four in the world actually meant something. No one was cynical about it in those days. He was number four in the world. That was a moniker that he could use. That was something that people would talk about seriously. It had meaning. It had significance. We have to get back to that time when the ratings were not treated with a joke as they mostly are nowadays.

Do you think the problems with boxing are more in inherent to the U.S., and the sport is stronger worldwide?

I think, regretfully, the same problems that we experience here are similar overseas. Yes, definitely, mismatching the fighters, favoritism in judging...

What about foreign TV?

Definitely. The foreign market, talking from a U.S. promoter's standpoint -- when I refer to the foreign markets I'm talking outside the United States -- in those markets the remuneration that you receive has deteriorated worldwide significantly over the last three or four years. I remember particularly in the late 80's, when I became involved in promoting many shows, in Europe, in England, in Italy, in Germany, the rights fees those countries were paying to foreign fighters were very, very significant. Now, some of the countries still pay very, very big dollars to their own countrymen but are not that interested in fighters unless they're in mega fights

So in other words, I could have Orlando Canizales, who was the former IBF bantamweight champion, I could have him fight against someone from Panama and sell the fight to SKY Television in England and receive a decent dollar. Now I would have difficulty selling that fight, but I could receive a lot of money if he were fighting an Englishman. Also, with the proliferation of the titles, there's more interest now [in England] for a small British title, than maybe an American and a Panamanian fighting for a world championship.

So to answer your question, yes, things have changed quite dramatically. Also the Kirch Group, which was the one of the largest media groups in the world, like a Bertelsmann, like a Murdoch News Corporation, they owned many, many television stations in Germany, which pay a lot of money and due to the financial difficulties that group had, that’s also had dramatic impact.

What do you think is the outlook for boxing now?

I think in a certain way, I think the past 2-2.5 years, without contradicting myself too much, has started educating some of the managers, some of the fighters and I say this in a positive way.

I know with some of my fighters, I know with some of my managers, I had to sit down and explain to them the networks aren’t paying what they used to pay. Initially there was a skepticism. There was a belief that the promoter was trying to pocket another couple of hundred-thousand dollars or something along those lines.

There are also no secrets any longer. Some years ago you didn't have an obligation to tell the fighter what you were receiving. Now you have a legal obligation to do that. For those of us that are not trying to screw the fighter, we don't mind showing them.

In actual fact, in a perverse way, it's OK. I don't mind. I want the fighters to know because the problem we have in the business, or one of the problems we have in the business, is your price of entry can be anything. And as we know, and we've heard these stories all to often, there can be some fellow that's carrying your bag or lives in your neighborhood that tells the unsophisticated fighter ‘you're not earning enough money, your promoter's screwing you, your manager's screwing you, your trainer’s getting too much,’ and the next thing you know the fighter wants to know from the promoter why he's getting screwed.

There's no basis for it other than what some unsophisticated person is telling him. You know we refer to them as gym rats, and they are all creeds all colors. I'm not suggesting just one denomination, but you have these kinds of difficulties. So today in a strange way, I'm delighted that I can say, 'Listen, you thought I was earning X, you think that I'm making money on this show. I'm not making money. you're the only one that is making money on this show. So have a look here. Here are my figures. Here's what I'm getting from the hotel. Here's what I'm getting from the television networks and here's what I'm paying you. You can see what's going on here.’ So it's actually an advantage that we have to disclose. It helps the education process, as I see it.

Your long term prognosis then is what?

The sports been around a long time. The sport will continue to thrive. I think we need to be proactive, as I said outset of our visit, we need for everyone to participate. We have a collective goal. I have some other ideas which at some point in time I would like to introduce, such as franchises, such as a league, those things that I do believe can work. Some methods of policing some of the conduct, that we experience in our sport.

My story with Hasim Rahman was well chronicled and obviously pains me to talk about it. I remember a couple days after Rahman left me, walking in Central Park in New York, feeling quite sorry for myself, and one of my friends phoned me up, asked me how I was doing. I had my cell phone with me.

I said, 'how am I doing? How do you think I'm doing?' and he said, 'You know, you might want to watch the Lakers in the Western Conference finals. They're playing against Portland.' And I said, 'I don't really care too much about basketball.' And he proceeded to say, 'today was a very special game.' I asked him, 'come on, where are you going with this? You know I'm not much of a basketball fan.' He said, 'well Shaq is playing for Portland this afternoon.'

Well I said, 'I'm not in a good mood, tell me what you are trying to say.' and he said, 'No, Shaq is playing for Portland.' I said, 'What do you mean, listen I'm not that much of a fan, but I know that Shaquille O'Neil doesn't play for anyone other than the Los Angeles Lakers.' And he said, 'No, what happened is, in practice yesterday afternoon, he had a disagreement with the owner, Dr. Buss, and so he called his agent who spoke to Portland, to the owner of Portland, and they sent a plane to pick him up after practive and they worked over the wee hours of the night. They put a deal together and he's going to play for Portland against the Lakers this afternoon.'

Well, I listened to that. I doubted my friend for a moment and I said 'What kind of nonsense are you talking about?' And he said, 'I'm trying to make a point,’ he said. 'Three or four nights ago, Don King sat with Hasim Rahman in the wee hours of the morning and agreed to indemnify him and take Rahman to join his team, the equivalent to his team.’

That obviously can't happen in the NFL, it can't happen in the NBA. If Rahman had the grievance with me, he would go to the grievance committee, it would go to arbitration. The matter would be resolved that way. Instead what happened between King and I, there's an extremely costly litigation that ensued. It was most certainly damaging to me reputation-wise. It didn't enhance King's reputation.

Ultimately King lost money on the Lennox Lewis promotion. Rahman ended up earning less money to fight Lennox Lewis in the rematch than he would have earned if he still remained with me. It was like, an absolute classic ‘no win.’ No one really won and it didn't do the sport any good.

And there is an example of how things shouldn't happen and how this free-for-all aspect of our business should be policed along the line of the NFL or the NBA. The sport is a billion dollar industry, a billion dollar sport, a billion dollar business. It should be handled in the same way. It should be conducted in the same way.

So I go back to what I said at the outset of our conversation. We need to introduce sponsors. We need to have people believe in the sport, the credibility of the sport. There are still some people that think it's like wrestling, when it obviously isn't. And we need to make some dramatic and drastic changes and I think you are going to see those changes in the year 2004. The union's going to have a lot of impact and something to do with it. And I do hope and I believe and I'm confident that we’ll get the networks to come back into the sport. We'll find a way to bring some sponsorship dollars to the table. We'll start creating new stars and then we'll all reap the benefits of those new stars.

This article originally appeared on FightNews.com on November 30, 2003 and was written by Karl Freitag.

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